Karen:
Today's guest is someone who has lifted me as a CEO and as a human.
As my Vistage chair and coach, her influence has created ripples in my life and
countless others. She has the remarkable ability to bring clarity in chaos,
courage in uncertainty, and to ask the kind of questions that don't just shift
your thinking — they shift your being. I'm endlessly grateful for the ways
she's supported me, challenged me, and lifted me through some of the most
pivotal chapters in my journey. And in true Always Lifting fashion, she
embodies the thread this podcast is all about: wisdom, curiosity, growth, and
grace. Welcome, Joni Naugle.

Joni:
Why, thank you, Karen. That was certainly a very kind introduction.
Well, I mean all of those things.

Karen:
I view you as the CEO whisperer, as well as a valued friend, and I'm
just so happy that you came on and were willing to try this out with me. It's
an honor. So let's do this thing.

If we go to this idea of CEO whispering — I mean, literally your
job, and I'm pointing to Vistage chair and coach, because I want to get into
how you ended up there as well. Your job is literally to lift up CEOs and key
executives. How did you determine that you even wanted to do this? Because our
group of Vistage members can be a little bit of lions all around. How did you
end up there, and tell me a little bit what you view Vistage as for those
listening.

Joni:
You know, there's a saying — I think it was from a Beatles song —
that life is what happens when you're making other plans. That's happened to me
through my whole journey. I didn't even know what Vistage was until a
colleague, someone in the community, came to me one day and said, “Hey, would
you want to do this?” And I said, I don't even know what this is. And yet,
looking back, every step along the way was pretty much preparing me for it. I
just didn't know it. Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know, and
when the door presents itself, are you going to walk through it?

I was first approached back in,
I think, 2008 or 2009. At the time, I had just launched my consulting practice,
and the requirement to get started was that you had to really focus to build a
brand new group — it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my career,
building that first CEO group. I'd just sent hundreds of letters to everyone in
the community I knew, saying I'm starting this new business, and Vistage told
me I couldn't do anything else for six to nine months while I got started. I
said, that's not right, my professional credibility is on the line, and I
turned them down. They came back a few years later, and by then it was much
easier — I'd had the business running for several years, so I could say, I'm
fully committed, I don't have capacity to take on other work. So in 2010, I
went out for training — there's a whole interview and approval process, then a
week of training in California, and then the process of actually launching the
first group.

Back then, they used to do
events — you'd invite people to a 90-minute session, one in the morning, one at
lunch, with someone giving a 20-minute talk on a topic. We'd explain what
Vistage was, have everyone identify an important issue they were working on,
process that issue together, and then try to set appointments to actually sign
people up.

Karen:
And that's a great example of what Vistage is — the framework of the
meetings, once a month, all day, curated speakers bringing the most interesting
content, followed by business reviews where everyone shares what's going on in
their business, and then processing each other's issues. I guess they'd call
that peer networking or peer learning.

Joni:
I really do believe the power of peers is very strong. Everybody is
dealing with similar things. What's interesting about our business model at
Vistage is you can't have competing industries in the room — which is different
from some models, like the auto industry's 20-groups, where it's all car
dealers from different geographies. Our model is same geography, different
industries. I think there's a lot of benefit to that, because everybody's
dealing with people, everybody's selling something to someone, whether you're
manufacturing it or providing a service — there are a lot of similarities.
Being able to hear everyone else's experience is just very powerful.

Karen:
There's almost a storytelling aspect to it — hearing someone work
through what they're experiencing, watching them work through it with your
questions, or all of us asking questions, and getting to run that scenario
through our own minds for when we come across something similar.

Joni:
So many times, after a meeting, people say, “I could totally relate
to that — I have similar things going on in my business.” We like to think
we're all different, but we're more alike than we are different. And I find, in
one-to-one coaching especially, that just the ability to say something out loud
— when before it was only in your head — creates a shift. It crystallizes a
little bit better. You take a really big leap just from how the thought comes
together once you have to say it out loud.

Karen:
You've coached me and countless others. Is there some common blind
spot you see leaders have to work through?

Joni:
I think the biggest one is the hesitancy to make a decision and move
on it when you absolutely know somebody's not in the right seat. It's tough,
because you're dealing with people's lives, and I understand that's hard. I'm
not saying if someone's not a fit you should just let them go without thought —
but you have to take action, have the hard conversations, set the hard
expectations, and if they're not met, make the hard decision to release them to
the market and let the market enjoy their abilities. And every single time,
once someone finally does it after hesitating, everyone around them in the
organization says, ‘What took you so long?’ Because everybody could already see
it.

Here's one example: someone had
a person on their team they knew was a problem. Gave them a warning, gave them
another, gave them a final one — and then it happened again, and the plan was
to put together another document of what they had to do. I said, no, wait a
minute — what happened to one, two, three? This isn't going to happen again,
it's time to make a decision. Once that decision was made, they were so much
better off, because things weren't being done and huge opportunities had been
overlooked. They were able to circle back and recapture those opportunities.
It's demotivating to your high performers to keep a low performer, especially
in an important role.

Karen:
You're kind of a mirror in those situations — reflecting back to
people, sometimes actions they're taking that aren't great. Is there a way you
help someone get to the point where they're ready to hear that, from a coaching
perspective?

Joni:
It's all around the questions you ask. Once you know something's
going on, it's a matter of asking questions — and a lot of times, not always,
but a lot of times, they'll get there if they answer honestly. If not, you
might need to be a little more pointed, asking how aware they are of something.
Then there's usually a big silence, because they didn't expect the question.
You just have to be silent and let the silence do the heavy lifting, because we
like to fill every moment with words. We're very uncomfortable, as a species,
with silence.

Karen:
I feel like silence can be a superpower. I think you've taught me
that — we're leaders, but we also have to put a coaching hat on sometimes, and
know how to be silent, or let the group get to the answer, even when we might
already know it.

Joni:
That's absolutely true. One of the things a lot of leaders think is
that they have to have every answer. They don't. In actuality, they have to
have the good questions — they don't have to have the answers. But that's what
we all thought as we evolved in our careers.

Karen:
Is there a way to identify the difference between someone who's just
leading well versus someone who is lifting others?

Joni:
I think that's easy. A good leader will set the goal and complete
the output — that's part of what leading is, accomplishing goals and executing
on tactics. A great leader, though, will lift others in the process of doing
that. I could be a good leader with an almost dictatorial approach and still
get the output. But what is the wake I've left behind? Who have I barreled over
instead of included, instead of lifted up? Because you get more from people who
feel a part of it. People want to make a difference, they want to help — let
them help.

Years ago, the authoritarian
approach — just focus on output — has really evolved. Now it's more important
for a leader to understand how they show up. When a leader pulls into the
parking lot in the morning, everybody's watching. Are they getting somebody
grumpy who's going to yell? Everyone adjusts based on that. So how aware is a
leader of how they're showing up, how they're influencing others, and how
they're picking up on social cues?

Karen:
I always think about how what I do can have these ripple effects —
physically, how you're showing up, whether you're tired or frustrated, but also
emotionally. People can sense frustration or anger, and sometimes you have to
feel the emotion to understand it without projecting it onto the person in
front of you. Some sort of emotional regulation. You've always helped me stay
calm in chaos — literally just being able to slow down instead of panicking.

Joni:
It's a struggle for me too, sometimes, but slowing down is
important. People catch your energy — I'm a ball of fire sometimes, and most
people aren't like us. It can be overwhelming for them to try to keep up, so
you have to slow yourself down, or you're going to lose them. You're absolutely
going to lose them.

Karen:
You have endless energy. How do you fill your cup, especially now
that you have a little more time for it?

Joni:
I am often very energetic — do I get physically tired? Sure, usually
toward the end of a really busy day. But right now, something that's so much
fun for me is teaching myself the guitar. My poor fingers are very sore — I
have to be careful not to get blisters, because I enjoy it so much. I'm using
an app, building strength in my hands, learning chords, learning songs. It's
just so much fun, and it gives me lots of energy. I'm also relearning Spanish —
I took it in high school, and I think it would be a really valuable skill to be
more bilingual. I do 15 to 20 minutes a day, every day.

The app I'm using to learn
guitar actually recommends 10 to 15 minutes a day when you're starting out,
otherwise you'll tear your fingers apart — and I've enjoyed it so much I've
been doing more like 30 minutes. I have to tell myself to back off or I'll get
blisters all over. Everybody, no matter how busy they are, can find 15 minutes
a day to do something that really fills their cup. I think you can.

Karen:
You're also a world traveler — these epic trips of cultural
immersion. What does that wandering do for you?

Joni:
We've been to 54 countries, and we're going to another one this
year. The types of trips we take — bigger, more extensive, off the beaten path
— the cultural learning, being able to meet people in other parts of the world,
is just so much fun. We travel with a group of 16, mostly local friends, and we
mix and match really well — you don't have to worry about what your spouse
wants to do, you just go do what you want because you know everybody. On these
trips, they'll divide us up once or twice and drop you off at somebody's house
for dinner with them. I love that.

Karen:
You're also taking some golf lessons, I hear.

Joni:
I've played golf for quite a while, but some friends got me a gift
certificate for lessons and a club fitting. I've had my first lesson with a
great pro, and every day I practice the drill he gave me for 15 minutes until I
go back for my second lesson. I've already noticed a difference after not even
a week. And then, of course, I swim in the summertime.

Karen:
If we pull it all together — what does it mean to lift, in your
eyes?

Joni:
It means that you continue to improve yourself and improve those
around you. That's the epitome of lifting — not only yourself, but your
community, your friends, your clients or customers if you have them. A long
time ago, I went through a program at Sovereign Bank where we had to answer
some key questions, and one of them was: what do you want your life to be
about? Looking back on that, it's that people who met me were glad that they
did, because I made a difference.

Karen:
Thank you, Joni, for your wisdom, for all of the questions, and for
your unwavering support of me and all of the other people we've talked about.
You really do lift hearts and minds, and as one of those you've touched, I'm
honored to play your ripple effect forward.

Joni:
I am honored to have been able to help in whatever little way I
have. Thank you very much for inviting me here today, and for letting me be a
part of your life.

Karen:
What a wonderful conversation with my favorite Vistage chair. Check
the show notes for more information on Joni and how to become a Vistage member.
Remember to subscribe to this podcast, and always lift.